#homestuck epilogue meta

[borzoilover69]

Forever thinking and crying about how we get to see Dirkjake subtly getting better in the end credits and how much it touches my damn heart, from Jake confronting Dirk on the platform (albeit from both of their body languages, a bit awkwardly), DIrk doing something his AR confesses he wouldn't NORMALLY DO, showing positive character change, indicating him giving up that need to control a situation so Jake can talk to him.

To choosing to rule a kingdom of consorts together.

And then a year later, still shown to be very close, even going so far as to make a giant mech version of caliborn and strifing each other while Dirk sends the photo to his brother dave, a response of "something cool happening" to Dave, Karkat and Jade uncovering another liberty.

And finally, a good solid three (or so) years after the game and two years from the last snapshot we see of them, here's Jake, taking pictures of him and Strider in the background working on something, still hanging out, still being best friends ( at the very least ) and working on stuff together. It feels nice to know in my mind they are happy.

[charmikarma]

Breath as Influence and John in the Epilogues

Breath is probably one of the better understood aspects. “What is it?” someone asks – and the whole fandom is like, “Oh, Breath is about freedom and wind and detachment.” Which I don't disagree with. But I think most people miss a key piece of it – Breath as influence.

I'm no seasoned classpector, but I am a Mage of Breath, so I feel like I have a deep and personal understanding of Breath, particularly because of how it has manifested in my life. Yeah, I know, claiming I'm an authority on the subject because of my self-imposed alignment within a fake typology system makes me sound like an asshole. But I'll have to ask you to trust me, because if I start talking about my own experiences, I'll sound like even more of an asshole.

Anyway, let's kick this off with the official description of Breath, per the Extended Zodiac:

In summary: the Breath-bound are flexible, driven, detached, and maybe a little self-centered. Also, other people tend to get caught up in their personal development, which tends to make them good leaders. But the most important thing here for the point I'm making is this:

others ... feel inspired by them.

This word, inspired, has been rolling around in my brain for the past few weeks, because of its connection to Breath. Hey, did you know that “inspire” comes from Latin spirare, meaning "breathe"? And if we include the Latin prefix in-, it becomes "breathe into."

The Breath-bound have an ability to breathe into, or inspire others. They're not aware of it – after all, they are just living their lives for themselves. But wherever they go, they are inspiring people. Or, more accurately, they are influencing people. Actually, the influence of Breath goes beyond just people. I could even get meta with it (and I will. I apologize in advance). But let's start small for now.

Tavros Nitram

So, Tavros. Page of Breath. Pretty much all of Tavros's contributions to Homestuck as a story happen as a result of someone doing something to him. Vriska paralyzes him, which kickstarts the whole FLARP cycle of revenge arc. And again when the truce is broken in Act 5 Act 2, it is because Vriska kills Tavros. If this doesn't sound like influence to you, you're right. Tavros has very little influence. He's a Page, after all, and if there's one thing I know about Pages, it's that they're weak as shit until they reach their "true potential," which is pretty much always something stupidly overpowered. Y'know, like Jake overpowering Jade's first guardian powers. That was pretty batshit, I'd say.

But Tavros's contributions don't end there. He actually does reach his true Page-y potential right at the very end of Homestuck, when he gathers an army of ghosts – honestly, probably every single ghost in the furthest ring – by just talking to them. Was this something of a punchline to a very long joke? Probably. But it is also a pretty good example of the kinds of things Breath players typically do.

On a meta level, though, this argument kind of falls apart, because... As far as I can tell, the army of ghosts doesn't really do anything. Nothing important, anyway. Lord English's defeat is pretty much entirely at the hands of John, Dave, Davepetasprite^2, and alt!Calliope in the body of Jade, as described in the Epilogues. The ghost army just isn't relevant, in the end.

But you know what is relevant? Vriska.

Half the people reading this just groaned, I can feel it. Why are we talking about Vriska, a Light player, on a post about Breath?? I hear your question and I raise you this: Why the fuck is Vriska so obsessed with Breath players???? Personally, I think it's because she has an innate sense for their passive ability to decide what's relevant.

But before we get into Vriska, let's talk about John.

John Egbert

John, Heir of Breath. The protagonist of the story. In the context of my thesis of "Breath as influence," isn't it interesting that the protagonist is a hero of Breath? And even beyond that, he's an Heir, a class typically interpreted as "becoming" their Aspect, or "inheriting" it. If you find my argument compelling, you could even say John is the influence that drives the story. Which is exactly what a protagonist does - after all, what is a story without a protagonist?

This question is actually addressed in Homestuck, kind of. At some point in Act 4, Terezi manipulates John into visiting his denizen early, which gets him killed. The story is left without its protagonist, and progress grinds to a screeching halt. Jade doesn't enter the Medium and presumably dies. The reckoning never happens. Dave and Rose are trapped in a doomed timeline. They lose contact with the trolls. For what is a world without the breeze, without air, but a place of complete standstill? The story needs John to continue. Okay, it needs Rose and Dave and Jade just as much. But it's interesting that the story makes a point of John's death being the turning point that makes this particular timeline doomed.

Okay, sorry for the wait. It’s Vriska time. Vriska's driving motivation is to be relevant. She does everything in her power to steal the spotlight, which may or may not be related to the fact that she's a Thief of Light. Again, I'm not an experienced classpecter. I only really have a surface level understanding of Light. But I'm getting off topic here.

In Act 5 Act 2, Vriska starts talking to John. Why? Well, partially because she wants to compete with Terezi, who is talking to Dave. But there's also the fact that she wants to be the force responsible for Bec Noir. And also for John reaching god tier. And everything relevant really??? She's really fucking good at being relevant, I'll give her that. Or at least presenting the illusion of relevance, but that's a big topic that I think I should save for another day. Another essay, maybe. The point here is, John has a tremendous amount of influence over Things That Happen just by existing, and Vriska knows it. Maybe she torments Tavros because she senses the same sort of potential in him, but that's probably a stretch.

In any case, this is baby shit. There's better evidence than this. Let’s talk retcon powers.

You could argue that the retcon powers are separate from John's abilities related to his classpect, and on some level you'd be right. But in a game that "knows" everything that is going to happen, I have to question if extraneous powers like this are taken into consideration when Sburb "decides" what classpect it gives a player. I feel similarly about Jade's First Guardian powers. Teleportation is a pretty space-y power, in my opinion. And definitely one that... "breaks rules," I guess. Among all the other things First Guardians get to do. Once again, I'm no classpector. But Jade getting access to First Guardian powers upon reaching God Tier strikes me as very Witch of Space-y. I feel similarly about John's retcon powers - they strike me as very Heir of Breath-y.

And not just because I view Breath as influence, though that is definitely the most obvious way the retcon powers could be interpreted as Breath-y. Even on a surface level, they're pretty Breath-y. When John first talks to Roxy, he gives a whole spiel about everything he's been to up until this point, most of which is obscured by "blah blah blah." But little phrases come through occasionally, and when he starts talking about his brand new retcon powers, he uses the phrase "UNSTUCK FROM CANON." Which sounds a lot to me like "freedom from the narrative." But maybe more telling is the fact that John's quest as an Heir of Breath requires that he use his retcon powers. Getting rid of the oil, freeing the fireflies - his quest as established at the very beginning was always intended (in universe at least; I can't speak for Hussie's intentions) to be solved by his retcon powers.

So retcon powers are at the very least Breath-adjacent. What’s that got to do with Breath as influence? I’m sure you see where I’m going with this. Retcon powers are basically the ability to do whatever the fuck you want to any point of any timeline. I’d call this influence but I’d sound silly, actually. It goes way beyond influence. It’s way less subtle. I guess you could call direct intervention like this influence at its most powerful. Well, almost. There’s one step above this that John never really taps into. Which brings us to...

The Epilogues

For better or for worse, I fucking love the Epilogues. I think Candy, on its own, is a fantastic and surreal deep dive into a mind high on depression. And as for Meat, I’m an absolute sucker for metafiction and narrative fuckery. I eat that shit right up. My favorite anime is Princess Tutu, etc., etc. This is your warning: Yes, this section will contain evidence toward my claim that Breath is influence. It also doubles as an Epilogues analysis. It kind of turns into one at the end. Sorry, but I needed to get it out of my system.

So, in case you missed it, the step above retcon powers that John never taps into is direct narrative control, like we see Dirk engaging in throughout the Meat side of the Epilogues. The fact that Dirk is revealed to be the narrator of Meat begs the question: who is narrating Candy? It’s never outright stated, but it’s probably alt!Calliope. Unlike Dirk, alt!Calliope doesn’t have an agenda, as far as we’re aware. So why is Candy so fucked up and weird? Why is everyone out of character? I know this comes as a shock, but: it’s probably John’s passive influence over the narrative.

Before the Epilogues even begin, John’s been wasting away in his house all day, every day. He’s depressed as hell. Sort of dissatisfied with how artificial and "perfect" Earth C is. Some have suggested he also feels disconnected from the post-retcon versions of his friends, and I think this holds some merit. It would explain why he feels disconnected from reality in Candy.

(Candy, 11)

Depression colors your view of reality. It darkens some parts, brightens others. People who look happy will appear so to an unsettling degree. Fucked up things will appear even more fucked up. Depression ups the contrast, if you will. And that’s pretty much what happens in Candy. Jane’s pretty bad in Meat, but she’s like a billion times worse in Candy. Jade causes some awkward moments in Meat, but she is pretty much a sex pest in Candy. The positive parallels are a bit harder to find, since Meat pretty much sucks too, but you could speculate that John perceives Rosemary to be happier together than they actually are, so they’re, like, uber happy together in Candy and raising a daughter and shit. It is John’s warped perception of reality that in turn warps it beyond recognition.

This isn’t just me theorizing, by the way. There’s pretty compelling evidence to suggest that this idea is accurate to what is happening. It’s pretty clear in a conversation between (Vriska), who has just arrived on Earth C via the black hole in the furthest ring and her descendant/clone Vriska (aka Vrissy in HS:BC). The two of them stare up at the sky, pointing out clouds and what they are shaped like, when (Vriska) has a realization.

(Candy, 37)

John’s influence over the reality is so absolute, even the clouds bend to his will. I think Vriska only notices it because she’s a new arrival to Johntown. It isn’t long before she’s absorbed into the John-ness of the timeline. And then, she goes on to say exactly what I’ve been saying this whole time. Remember earlier, when I said Vriska knew that John had an incredible amount of influence over Things That Happen?

(Candy, 37)

Yeah. That wasn’t speculation.

The last thing she says, though, that he’d be relevant even if he was dead, is actually a reference to Meat. So let’s talk about it!

As we know, Meat is narrated by Dirk. Dirk’s narrative style is a lot of fun for me, personally. He’s sassy, kind of an asshole, and has no time for bullshit. The second John puts that meat in his mouth, he gets to work, pulling the strings of his little puppet show.

(Meat, 1)

He wastes no time putting words in John’s mouth, writing him out of the story of Earth C as quickly as possible. It’s almost with a sense of urgency that he pushes John to complete his mission. Which is probably necessary, seeing as the sanctity of canon relies on him going back to tie up the loose end that is Lord English. But I think Dirk has ulterior motives. I don’t think Dirk has the ability to impose his will so overbearingly with John around, because for some reason, John’s power of passive influence prevents him from doing so. Is John more powerful than Dirk, even after his ascension to Ultimate Selfhood? Maybe. I certainly think so.

But John’s pretty gullible. He’s easily influenced. He doesn’t have the same safeguard around his own mind, for some reason. Or maybe he does, and it’s just taken Dirk this long to crack him? This is speculation at this point. Not important.

So Dirk eventually kills John. Why? Well, first of all, it’s harder to control the narrative with him around. Though I speculate that’s not very important to Dirk anymore since he fucks off to who knows where around when John comes back. I think, more likely, Dirk finds John’s influence on the narrative unsavory. I mean, just look at Candy. What an absolute disaster of a timeline. Maybe his awareness is such that he knows that letting John live will result in a similar degradation of his friends’ personalities as he knows them. I can’t really say one way or another. It’d explain why he wants John’s body on the ship with him, though. Y’know, to make sure he never gets revived. And yes, he wants him on that ship. He pretty much tells Terezi outright to captchalogue his body before convincing her to join him.

(Meat, 35)

There’s one problem, though. I don’t think John being dead even erased his influence on the narrative?

(Meat, 36)

Right there at the end:

The gentle breeze is all she can hear. It’s louder than my voice, and in some understated way, makes my case for me more persuasively.

I don’t think there’s any other way to read this than the breeze representing John. This is a literal manifestation of John’s influence. I guess it could be symbolic – like Terezi doing a “what would John do?” kind of thought process. But I dunno, Dirk doesn’t strike me as that kind of narrator. Besides... It’s a little too on the nose. Say what you will about the Epilogues, but I believe a great amount of care went into them. This certainly isn’t a throwaway line.

Conclusion

Okay, sorry. I really went off the deep end into Epilogues Analysis Land there. You may have noticed that I didn’t talk about Homestuck: Beyond Canon. That’s partly because I haven’t gotten there in my reread, but mostly because I’m not yet convinced that it has – or will have – nearly the level of plot consistency of its predecessors. We’ll see, I guess.

In any case... Breath as influence, huh? There’s probably more evidence for this hidden away somewhere. I probably could have talked about Rufioh. I didn’t want to though. I also probably could have pointed out the word inspire from the Extended Zodiac thing and called it a day, but instead I blacked out and wrote this. Weird!

If you read all, uh... *checks word count* 2.7k words of this??? Jesus fuck. If you read all this, thank you for reading. I’m open to feedback! I’d love to discuss some of this more! Especially the Epilogues stuff. I have a million thoughts. Bye!

[nekropsii]

Considering how Dave/Jade/Karkat and Jake/Jane/Gamzee were treated in the epilogues, I get the feeling the writers don’t have the fondest opinions of poly relationships

Considering how a lot of things were treated in the Epilogues, I get the feeling the writers don’t have the fondest opinions of much of anything Homestuck related, lol. No shade to those who like them, they just have a very pessimistic feel to me.

… Actually, I just thought of something. Allow me to tangent for a moment.

The difference between Homestuck and The Homestuck Epilogues actually reminds me a lot of the dichotomy between the original ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion vs. The End of Evangelion. The original Neon Genesis Evangelion ending was very avant-garde, psychological, and had a deeply, oddly hopeful feeling to it. Everyone hated it, because they wanted an epic robot action sequence- an awesome, climactic victory to cap off a story that never existed. The hatred of the excruciatingly fitting abstraction of the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion was so strong, people vandalized the GAINAX Studio building about it, and the people working on it were sent a lot of hate mail and even death threats. You know, crimes! Vandalism, death threats, and harassment are crimes!

As a response to this, GAINAX created The End of Evangelion, a film that is simultaneously a retcon and expansion of the original ending. It gives people exactly what they want- action, action, and more action. It also completely strips it of that off kilter feeling of hope you get. There is not a shred of hope left in you once you finish that film. It is scathingly, crushingly pessimistic. There are several sequences that are just outright hard to watch. But it’s exactly what people asked for, isn’t it? Epic robot action sequences, gunfire, explosions, death, death, death?

People had been asking for Homestuck to get “properly finished” ever since the final page came out. People wanted more focus on characters, relationships, and domestic drama. People have wanted the 12 layers removed from reality fanfiction version of the Homestuck ending that they created in their minds to be official and canon for years now.

They got what they asked for, didn’t they?

They asked for a small scale, character driven, relationship drama fueled fanfiction version of the ending, didn’t they? Do you think some people regretted asking and demanding this for years rather than making something for themselves the moment they heard the monkey’s paw curl?

Because I think the hundreds of people who totally jumped ship and even deleted their blogs did.

[nintendont2502]

I think. there's so much potential with Ult Dirk and fanworks- specifically their meta nature

Like. Idk fanworks are usually created to try and 'fix' a perceived problem in canon (even if that problem is 'character x not getting enough screen time' or 'x and y not fucking' yk). Ult dirks whole thing is trying to fix canon and trying to maintain relevancy (there's a whole interesting side tangent there about ult dirk - a character focused on maintaining narrative relevancy as a source of power - being trapped in Homestuck's post canon, which not only isn't narratively relevant to the source but also isn't relevant to the fandom (and is in fact widely hated) and wasn't even finished - I'd love to believe that was done on purpose but that's just me trying to squeeze any scrap of meaning out of post canon I think)

ANYWAY fanworks are a pretty good way to gain relevancy methinks - unpopular characters/characters screwed over or ignored by the narrative usually flourish in fanworks, right? *But* there's the inherent trade off there - sure, you're gaining narrative relevancy, but it's in a narrative you have no control over. You as a character are being filtered through someone else's voice at best, and at worse there's a whole new version of yourself out there. And just. Fuck how do you think ult dirk - the ultimate version of the guy who had a crisis about different versions of himself outside of his control - would feel, knowing that after he finally united all splinters of himself into one, that's there's God knows how many versions of that version of himself - none of them under his control

If you want to make it really meta, I could almost imagine a version of Ult Dirk, realising he's trapped in a comic that - let's be real here - is never going to get finished, and that no one cares about (and new fans are explicitly discouraged from reading) and getting so desperate for narrative relevancy again that he embraces those fanon versions of himself, allowing himself to become watered down and diluted by the countless different interpretations of him written by the fans in order to maintain his power (or even his existence)

[red-elric]

SO HERES THE THING ABOUT DIRK

whatever else you can say about him, he cares so so so much about his friends. he rewrites an entire book for jane and builds her a robotic rabbit designed to help and protect her. he loves roxy so so much and yeah, maybe sometimes hes a little freaked out by her flirting at the beginning but its so clear that he loves her anyway. he's obsessed with jake, kind of in an unhealthy way, but he KNOWS that and he tries so so hard to be who jake wants him to be, to make jake even a tenth as happy as jake makes him. he literally cuts off his own head to save their lives. and god. dave. DAVE. he meets dave near the end of the session, and he finds out that an alternate universe version of him was an abusive shit to dave, and he apologizes. and you can tell he blames himself but he does such a good job trying not to make it about him. and he cheers dave up with stories about HIS alternate universe self and he gives the guy a hug and lets dave chop off his head later to save them all, no questions asked. this fucking guy. THIS FUCKING GUY. so sweet and so considerate and literally always thinking of the people he loves. the fuckin hallmark of 'maybe his alt self was evil, but he himself is so so good and is proof that people arent fundamentally good or bad, but a product of their environments.' youre telling me that THIS dirk strider. what. decided it was a good idea to amalgamate all potential versions of himself--including the super abusive piece of shit versions--into one 'ultimate being,' and became the bad guy for the epilogues and homestuck^2?????? I think the FUCK not!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I stopped reading hs2 a while ago admittedly, so I dont have MUCH of a leg in the game, but man. thats not my dirk. if theres not something else going on there, ill eat my cool bro hat.

[offkilterkeys]

Something nobody ever talks about is how Homestuck^2, (or rather I suppose HS:BC now,) doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and how recreating what was possibly the most overtly toxic and abusive relationships in the comic with their new shipkids, going as far as to give them the same exact names and clearly inspired personalities, is kinda strange.

Especially when you remember those were the same people who well, I don’t know, went on tirades about how the aggressor did nothing wrong, or how the victim was “in the wrong actually” due to “being an obvious chaser,” and whatnot. It just feels like something that should be talked about more, they have the same exact names for goodness sake! The dynamic is obviously meant to be more sanitized, sure, but the fact that they’re depicted as a healthy blackrom relationship can’t just be coincidental. Like, if we’re being objective here, one could even argue that those who wrote it wanted to recreate that relationship, and from what we’ve been shown it doesn’t seem like it was done for any substantial “meta commentary.”

When the two writers of the media property said this I’m sure it had no effect on how the media property was written. I’m also positive that their opinions had no effect on the attitudes of their team at large. You’ve got my vote of confidence that they were putting such mindsets aside whenever they were preparing to write a story where TavVris^2 happens.

Vriska appearing as a prominently likable character who gets everything done in ways that are only acknowledged as “cool” and/or “badass” was just a completely separate writing decision all together. The original Tavros (now colloquially known as “gcat-Tavros” (sprite affiliation),) being poignantly excluded is also unrelated to everything as well I’m pretty sure. It’s all super cut and dry really, innocent fanfiction fun that looks to do right by everyone, no ulterior motives or underlying bias.

I just think it’s highly suspect, is all. TavVris^2, completely unproblematic and the most normal relationship they both have, done for normal reasons, brought to you by the authors that have always kept self indulgence out of their continuation.

[shoegazingmonad]

Hate how so many Homestuck fans are unable to comprehend how tragic Ult Dirk is. At the end of Homestuck, in the credits, we get to see Dirk get his shit sorted out in the consort kingdom, him in a happy relationship with Jake and clearly content with how his life was going post-game. Finally getting to relax and settle down and work out everything with his friends and family and then BOOM nevermind fuck it. Shitpost metanarrative continuation just for fun. Except it's not fun because now he's been forcefully merged with all of the splinters he had worked so hard to accept weren't him. No longer physically able to differentiate their thoughts from his because he quite literally IS the sum of all of them, within one body. And THEN immediately after being told the universe that they'd spent their entire childhood waiting for is no longer a fully functional canonical timeline and becoming an egomaniacal douchebag, he's given narrator permissions and left to figure out whatever he thinks should be done about the whole universe-ending situation despite how mentally unfit he is for such a task.

And the part that really pains me when it comes to his new role as a villain is the fact that he, truly, was not given any other choice. The author needed a skilled antagonist who would wreck shit in an entertaining and cathartic way and he was simply the best pick there was. And so Dirk was shoved into a position so specifically cruel that it would've been obvious to anyone who knew him that there weren't any other options besides the antagonistic role so conveniently laid out before him. You can't just go up to a guy who has such a complex about his own individuality and existence and tell him that the universe is ending and everything leading up to this point will have been meaningless if nothing is done to prevent it, and THEN tell him that if he fuses with every other shitty him-adjacent dickhead he can gain story-altering abilities that could prevent the world ending scenario without him desperately taking that offer in a fit of existential fear. The narrative forced him into a position that would make him force himself to take up the specific role the narrative needed.

[souji-upseta]

yo my name is nyx, it's my birthday today (2/3). my birthdays have sucked SHIT the past few years for reasons that are depressing—

—cringe is also dead, i killed her myself, and i'm still grieving her loss. its been very hard for me—

—since i am the protagonist of Me and can do st abt this, this year i turn 31, and i will at some point turn 31.4, with all of this in mind, what do i want for my birthday? i'll tell you:

to talk about homestuck.

i'll do that, anyways, but you'd be doing me a gift by giving me a prompt to follow, and to feel slightly more validated in my inability to shut up about my hyperfixation.

so i'm asking YOU to talk about homestuck with me.

talk to me abt homestuck? ask me my headcanons. my thoughts. my relationship to the work. tell me yours. expect nothing that's profound, and plenty that's stupid.

i'm even turning anon on, for the first time in 6 fucking years. where making this happen.

this never expires btw. today is my birthday, but, for story purposes, let's say that it's still my birthday after it isn't, bc i will still want and, if i am honest, NEED you to talk to me about homestuck for years onward. i'm very metatextual like that.

i get the feeling it's going to be a long day.

>Nyx: Be the other guy.

You are now the other guy! What will you do?

>Web Tumblr User: Inbox Tumblr user souji-upseta?

>Mobile App Tumblr User: Do that, but hyperlink is unavailable?

=(n×∞)>

FOURTH WALL BREAK!

you are now nyx again, and i am now me, and i need to exposit some lore.

as in, some starting points to get u going, since "homestuck" is a very broad subject:

•i'm a massive massive slut for the epilogues and post canon content/hsbc. pesterquest is too good for this gay earth.

•dirk is my fav, ALL of the dirks, all of them, and it isn't even close. my fav relationship is the canon platonic/familial one between dirk and dave. i fucking love the striders. dave is my 1.5th fav.

•im more invested in dave's relationship to corndogs (and corn dogs) than you even know.

•mspa reader is my second fav after the striders, bc they are a good thembo friendsimp and also bc they are me and they are You. i might be biased. i love You. i love me. i love us. we're fucking gr8.

•im pretty canon-compliant, so my fav ship is dirkjake as exes (for now), and my fav ship as not-exes is panquadrant (canon) davekat.

i'm also really fascinated by rosemary and would welcome more opportunities to learn abt and talk about them but if homestuck makes a statement about anything it's to let the women and the sapphic characters tell their story (thats a joke, talk to me abt them too)

•june eg(g)bert real.

•i'm fascinated by classpects and the applications of paradox space's classpecting and extended zodiac system when applied to real life, since our only experience of those fictional systems is in linear dimensions of spacetime, and our only experience of astrology is as a species that in-universe cannot experience the sign caste system the same way the fictional aliens that created our species in their own image do. skaia knows, but we sure as fuck don't.

•i'm a former prince of heart (2012-2020) and a current knight of space, and my aspect is light. that is a thing that actually makes perfect sense for the reasons i just said.

don't ask me about vriska serket or (vriska) serket. not bc i'm not willing to discuss dark or problematic characters (hello, lanque bombyx) but bc:

for one, she can speak for her damn self, and has, tyvm.

for two, talking at length about a problematic character in any positive capacity marks you as an enemy of the state if that character is a woman, and being an enemy of the state is way too much fucking pressure for me for reasons i already explained as soon as i told you i'm a knignt of space. i wouldnt make a very good enemy of the state. it'd be an unhealthy blackrom relationship to the detriment of us all.

for three, i can just give you all my opinions/headcanons on vriska that matter:

•JOHN HUGGING VRISKA IN HSBC YESSSSSSSSSS

•she's greasy and gross and unkept af but not unclean or unsanitary, like, she bathes, she smells fine, she changes her clothes, but she's got the troll crust punk aesthetic absolutely on LOCK. she doesn't comb her hair.

•it would have been funny if she did even more bad things

•aradia did nothing wrong. vriska did but the meme is funny even if someone needs to take that meme out back and shoot it for the good of humanity.

•she should beat up ultimate dirk, and my reasoning for that is bc that would, also, be really fucking funny if she did

•john has both punched her in the face and hugged her, and now that john has punched aranea in the face, all that's left is for june—i assume she will have come out of her egg(bert) by then—to hug aranea and complete the circle of stupidity.

•she is trans yeah but she doesn't wanna get into it, she doesn't have to, and neither do i.

•vrisrezi most important relationship in homestuck.

there. you already got me to talk about vriska at length, and you didn't have to try. moot issue.

[creativeinfinite13]

The Singularity; or The Ultimate Self as Black Hole

When it comes to de(con)struction, there is nothing more infamous as the Homestuck Epilouges. It seems obsessed with consuming itself as a text, a story trying to exist in a space hostile to itself, resolving into a house with no foundation, and sincerity in an endless war of attrition against the uncaring whims of Narritive. Of course, you only really start to enjoy the epliouges when you realize that this is entierly on purpose- Earth C was always a part of the orobourus of the Cherubs, and Dirk is a really, really, shitty writer.

However, what im more interested in is what the Epilouges deconstructs and why- as it is the comentary it provides and how it intertwinds with the text that is the primary reason it was written- the Epilouges were never about more Homestuck. It was always about what it could do with, and comment on, the themes of Homestuck. And one of those themes- the topic of this essay- is The Ultimate Self.

What is The Ultimate Self? The answer is that it's really two things- what it was in Homestuck, and what it is now in the Epilogues. The mechanical explanation is the same- you absorb all your memories of every timeline you've ever existed in and become the ultimate greater You. The main difference between the two texts is whether that results in being a Person or a Character.

In Homestuck, the results of Ultimate Self are positive. With the perspective of a thousand lifetimes, you overcome your insecurities and become the most fulfilled version of yourself. You are happy, and almost divine in your self-satisfaction. Of course, the process would kill any normal human, (perfection is unattainable, and there is no shortcut to peace.) However, for the sprites that achieve it, it allows them to escape the traumas of their past and become the best version of themself. A Person, unbound from the narrative.

In the Epilogues, it couldn't be more different. Becoming Ultimate seems to exaggerate your issues- you fall into the same ruts over and over again. However, it also grants intense power it did not in Homestuck- your sight extends and your destruction unparalleled. In this way you are no longer a person capable of change- you are closer to a divine figure, a representation of yourself, the ultimate Classpect, Trope, Archetype- but not real. Too much You to ever self-reflect meaningfully, repeating the same cycles like an autonomon, knowing of your true place in a story, a code, a constructed and controlled play. To become Ultimate is to know you are a Character, and nothing comes back from that.

In this way, the Ultimate Self becomes a singularity- too much mass/character collapses into one, which then destroys all things near it. Not Light, nor Time can escape- and certainly not Heart. You become nothing, and everything, in a chaos of pure representation as your real-ity collapses. Thus comes the Ultimate Self as the Black Hole, the place the ouroboros surrounds and reproduces- a place where mythic cycles repeat endlessly, as they should. This would not be a problem, normally- but there are people who are not Ultimate. People that have to live, and deal with the consequences. People who still think they are real, and in thinking that, become it. Cognito Ergo Sum. So what do you do when dealing with uncaring gods? What do you do when you become one of them? The story of the Epilogues takes place in a Black Hole- it has from the very first paragraph. There is no escape. The cycle repeats. It keeps happening.

Can it break? Can reality's collapse, collapse itself? Can death die? There is one more thing I have not mentioned yet. At the very center of the Black Hole, there is a concentrated mass. The Ultimate Weapon. The singularity itself- but it has a curious function. While it does endlessly repeat- your own memories, your traumas- it does so with the purpose of helping you grow. You are given guides to become the best person you can be and are given infinite time to grow and change. Maybe the two interpretations are not separate after all?

The differences between Homestuck's Ultimate Self and the Epilouges could not seem more different. They have opposite psychological effects, and represent entirely different things. But they may not be so different after all. The sprites still exist. People, New things, are still being born in the Black Hole. To become yourself could mean to become all the worst parts of you. All the same parts. Mixed and recyled. It could also mean to become healthy. "Best Version," "Ultimate Version," it does not distinguish between Person or Character. But you can. You can still change. There is hope after all.

[davekat-sucks]

In order: Character problem, could be fixed with just a guillotine. Character problem, Alt!Callie is not a cosmic force, she is a loser with no friends who is also very bad at her job. Character problem and/or society problem, depending on if you want to blame capitalism or put the players in a guillotine. And as you said, thats a meta thing, not a cosmic instory force. Them being a collective dickhead does not a cosmic horror make. There is no creme to this oreo.

Alt Calliope is somewhat cosmic in that she had control in some narrative in Epilogues and in HS2/Beyond Canon. Taking over Jade's body and still monologuing her own thoughts. Doesn't help she is a Cherub like Caliborn. If Caliborn was able to reach to OP status via Lord English, I'm not surprise Alt Calliope is this for her. It's just people were too late too see Calliope's toxic positivity because she supposedly represents the good fandom. Meta is also part of theme within Homestuck too. It's been like that even in base webcomic. From commands, Gigapause, John's retcons, all of it had been important to the story. It is no different for Epilogues when Dirk killed himself if he couldn't control over a narrative and HS2/Beyond Canon where Ult Dirk seems to have control not only narrative, but people's emotions as well like he tried to do to Rose before realizing her feelings were of her own accord, not through manipulating her thoughts within the story. Some could say meta narrative is necessary for Homestuck to be Homestuck.

[proudfreakmetarusonikku]

it’s deeply funny to me thinking about the amount of worldbuilding in homestuck despite the comic mocking the concept like. just bc you introduce your worldbuilding in a natural way and only focus on what’s relevant doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist like. it is very funny when homestuck tries to go all meta and then doesn’t have a clue what it’s fucking talking about.

[borzoilover69]

what’s your general opinion on the epilogues / pesterquest / hs2 stuff etc. :0

Epilogues: Haven't read them, thought they were tragic.

HS2: Haven't read them but I've heard enough to assume i have. It's not good.

Pesterquest: Ironically, this was my first introduction to homestuck back in 2019. I remember really liking Mallek Adalov and Elwurd. I've recently watched the Dave and John routes of it, but I haven't watched all of them! I don't have enough to form an opinion on it but i watched all the fantroll stuff. ^o^

I think HS2 and Epilogues at least deserves credit by putting jake into a situation (VAGUE) that I believe he would be in. I can see him getting in over his head over being the worlds most famous god. i think it would just follow him unless he decided to fuck off and make an effort to disappear from the public eye.

We did not need a graphic description of Dirk killing himself. LAME! This has probably been said before but Dirk HS2 isn't even Dirk anymore. I don't care, he hated himself and feared himself he wouldn't.. be *that*. Boyfriend put it well, "Oh alright, the guy whos known to have a few screws loose knows he's in a fictional story . wonder where this is gonna go this sounds so neat. oh. oh he's transphobic now .. oh he's. forcing people to say things they normally wouldn't feel safe saying to make himself feel better oh. ok." Dirk would leave the planet. Not to play god, but to destroy himself. To protect his loved ones and believing isolating is the only way to.

It also turned into something that dirkjake abuse claimers could cheer about. They did Davekat dirty. The only sort of interesting thing I liked was how bitter Dirk was about him and Jake that he was willing to break up the one other green and yellow gay couple to further his plans and it could've led somewhere interesting.

They did Jane dirty. And i hate it. I hate the people who wrote Jane. I hope they burn. Understandable she'd be a person taking charge and not some cottagecore lesbian but if anyone would be a xenophobe it would be Dirk. While I can see Jane becoming isolated from her friends because she is serving life itself, i think it would've been an interesting point to see jane strive to battle that inherent loneliness.

I like the idea of the kids relationships falling apart (guns raise). It's an interesting point, and I feel like it could have branched out on the alphas who i found so incredibly appealing for the fact they were messy. (guns lower) I like the idea of the kids breaking apart because of awkwardness and the fight to fix it and not surrender to your inner demons, in a realistic ways. Just not how the epilogues or HS2 did it.

I have a solemn and actual idea how I could *fix* the epilogues and it would make it better, but maybe that's for another ask.. maybe. (hit up my ask box go on.) The epilogues introduced a LOT of good fucking concepts, but on a whole sucked, and I feel like they were cheated on their potential. I have so many ideas on what could've happened to the alpha kids. none of them were realised properly in HS2 or epilogues.

Also these designs fucked. Shame the content was so ass.

[spritestyle]

A half-formed thought I have about the relationships in homestuck is that 1). yes, Hussie does not deliver on the romance element in a satisfying way, and yet 2). he does write a bunch of very interesting potential. We have to fill in the gaps ourselves, which is annoying and unsatisfying, but he does set up the relationships in canon in such a way that it makes it extremely easy to do so. It isn’t that the romance is written badly so much as it isn’t really written at all. But there’s tons of chemistry between characters both implicitly and explicitly, and lots of romantic set-up, and a bunch of canon relationships, actually! But that’s the point at which Hussie kind of steps back and refuses to show us specifics or actually depict the things about the relationship that would make for a satisfying payoff. So instead we have this blank space around the relationships where we’re given a general sense of how things went but still have to imagine the details of how they actually played out. For me it is more unsatisfying than it is annoying. Homestuck in general tends to lampoon shipping culture and actively push up against/toy with that aspect of fandom in general. But I think it would only be made better and fuller and more complete if it actually embraced that aspect of storytelling

As of rn I have about 800 pages of HS left so I’ll update with more thoughts when I finish next week

[charmikarma]

ok but one thing i don't quite get yet is like. if a character goes ultimate in one timeline do they then have some kind of influence over their selves in other timelines who Didn't go ultimate ???? like with dirk the answer appears to be Yes. there's even this moment in candy where john hops back into canon to grab gamzee and dirk SEES HIM?? like dirk while hugging dave at the end of homestuck sees him. it is fucking wack and i'm not really sure what it means. maybe i need to play pesterquest again i never did get to dirk or aradia's routes and i have no clue what they revealed, just a vague sense that they were Wack and maybe a little important

but anyway. then u got dave and rose and it's like. not really apparent that they have any influence over their selves from other timelines?? so i dunno. maybe it's a dirk specific thing i can't really say. but interestingly dave and rose appear to be at their absolute worst before they go ultimate which probably says a lot about dirk

[nintendont2502]

[guy who's desperate for the epilogues to have any meaning voice]: no you dont get it its the meat/candy binary of storycraft theory- i- yes those are the foods the cherbus love its- its relevant i swear to god- yeah- yeah no its - hussie describes [s] jack: ascend and other 'violent, high-octane, game-changing animations' as the 'meat' in the meat/candy binary giving meat a more plot and action based focus and- meat is caliborns favourite food and candy is calliopes food- the symbol of the candy timeline is the trickster candy which makes everyone effected go severely out of character and focus on relationships and having children- which is exactly what happens in the candy timeline while the meat timeline focuses on the plot and action- the entire epilogues is framed as an ao3 fanfiction it was always meant to be bad and out of character- yeah- yeah no ult dirks like that because hes *dirk* right now that he has narrative control he can make everything he described himself as (a maniupative heartless puppet master) real and canon and- yes everyone else is also out of character its intentional i swear to god i- look alt callie controls the candy timeline right. the one represented by the trickster candy. the cherubs are 'the ultimate distillation' of the idea that 'at any given moment Homestuck is full of surrogates for various factions of the readers' (direct quotes from the author notes) which is why the candy timeline is like that because alt callie is effectively a homestuck fan being given control over the universe and the story and using that control to explore relationships and fan children (just like the fans because shes a fan surrogate and just like the effects of the trickster candy because candy is her favourite food and the trickster candy is intrinsically tied to the cherubs) while the meat timeline is like that because its focused on the violence and game changing action that makes up the meat in the meat/candy binary but ultimately theyre both just striving for narrative relevancy in their own different ways because what is a story without an audience right - callie/the candy timeline is just a representation of the fanworks that usually end up keeping a property relevant while drifting further and further away from canon while ult dirk/the meat timeline is probably a representation of franchises that refuse to die and continue making more and more sequels and continuations that slowly drift away from the original vision original characters original canon in a desperate pursuit to retain some relevance even though fans usually hate them and theyre seen as nothing more than bad fanfiction and *THATS* why the epilogues are like that *THATS* why everyones out of character and its set within the framework of an ao3 story tags and all and- where did you go. why are you running away come back i havent even mentioned how dirk and callie have both drawn fanart of the homestuck characters in canon and now theyre effectively writing fanfic-

[red-elric]

the thing about the hs epilogues is like. its the most basic thing. dirk wrote meat, john wrote candy, theyre both bad in-universe rpf and the rampant mischaracterizations come from their own misunderstandings of themselves and each other. dirk is TEXTUALLY the narrator for most of meat, john is pretty strongly implied to be influencing the candy narrative. and in that context, it makes more sense. I just dont really believe the narratives have much grounds in """"real""""" (for want of a better term) post canon events uknow??